spared. they will be retiring to a life of leisure in virginia. >> they appreciate it. we saw jimmy fallon didn't think so much, but tater and tot are going to love that. that does it for wednesday. happy thanksgiving to all of you. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ >> he's more than just a logo. more than just an internet meme. there is a reason you call somebody the michael jordan of. michael jordan of neurosurgery or michael jordan of rabbis. they know what you're talking about because michael jordan is the michael jordan of greatness. he is the definition of somebody

so good at what they do that everybody recognizes it. that's pretty rare. good morning. it's wednesday, november 23rd. we're almost there to thanksgiving. that was president obama giving out medals of freedom at the white house yesterday. with us on set, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic specialist steve rattner. rick tyler and on capitol hill, "the new york times" reporter jeremy peters and, willie, the west side highway is shutdown. that's where joe sits. >> oh no. >> so -- >> do you think he packed his patience this morning. >> that's where i was going. everybody is told if you watch your local news, traffic and weather to pack your patience today to get ready to go to turkey day but joe is packing his patience right now on west side highway and let me just tell you, it's not good. >> he doesn't have a lot of patience to pack.

>> there's none. you could probably hear him from inside -- >> he'll join us in progress. >> so the medal of freedom ceremony. a lot of news to get to. that was fun. >> what a collection of americans from michael jordan, bill and melinda gates, ellen degeneres, lauren michaels. all walks of life. all walk of celebrity. all walk of history. remarkable day every year but -- diana ross with great look on her face. yesterday was particularly remarkable. when ellen was receiving her honor and the announcer was saying all the things she had done for society, she welled up with tears. a really nice moment. >> some 30 years ago i was there with my dad when he got the medal of freedom. he's going to be on the show today we look forward to that. a lot to get to. there's some new names to be

announced this morning in the transition and names that won't go away either. "the wall street journal" reports that mitt romney is now the leading contender for secretary of state but the paper describes an ongoing tug of war behind those backing romney and others urging the selection of former new york mayor rudy giuliani. that would be rudy urging. a third group is pushing for more candidates, which would make sense. a trump spokesman said absolutely no decision has been made. giuliani is speaking about whether or not he wants the job. let's take a listen. >> i'm not going to discuss what i'm interested in or what the president-elect is thinking or mulling over. that's not fair. that's not the right way to do it. this all has to be done privately not just with regard to me but with everyone else. that i'll answer before the president-elect.

>> doesn't speak for the president-elect. not fair. not going to do it that way. not going to do it like this actually. >> there's a big merger that may go through. you could be attorney general. it could come up on your ledger in the antitrust department. are these big mergers going to be opposed by the trump administration? >> well, first of all, i won't be attorney general. >> you won't be attorney general? >> i won't have to decide that one thank god. i can escape that one. >> i should ask jeff sessions that question, shouldn't i? >> wouldn't be a bad idea but i don't know who is going to be attorney general. >> "the wall street journal" reported early this afternoon that the choice for secretary of state in a trump administration is down to rudolph giuliani and john bolton. we don't have john bolton here tonight so i'll ask you questions about -- >> john would be a very good choice. >> is there anybody better? >> maybe me. i don't know.

>> so he actual announced sessions before the president-elect could and then started to pitch himself for secretary of state and actually had to be told that you don't do it that way. >> somebody clearly got to him between the first clip we showed and the second one. >> any other administration with any other president with any normal transition wouldn't say it and if he did, wouldn't be getting anything. >> jeremy peters, what does the process look like inside trump tower? we've really only been seriously talking about a couple of names. mitt romney now. "wall street journal" reports is the leading contender but we heard about a lot of leading contenders over the last couple weeks and rudy giuliani primarily from rudy giuliani. are they considering other names? are we down to these two. >> these are pretty much the final two. i think there was general john kelly whose name was floated earlier in the week. he may be under consideration

for other national security diplomatic or defense posts. what the incoming trump administration is really trying to do here is broaden the number of people in these senior posts who have military combat experience because it's their thinking that if you have people who fought in wars making decisions about whether or not to commit the united states to more wars, that that's a better thing. that makes people on the civilian side of the military very nervous because there's a long tradition of having civilian control of the military in our country. going back to the secretary of state issue, you know, rudy you could tell from that sound bite he's still in it. he wants to make sure he does everything he can to persuade donald trump to pick him. that's why he was on his best behavior yesterday when he came out of the golden elevators in the lobby of trump tower and didn't step in it again. he's being very cautious. >> it will be very interesting. if that's the choice, then the

president-elect is choosing someone who is kind of -- who is going to freelance for himself around the world. he did it literally during one of the most delicate times, which is a presidential transition. when people are being talked to and vetted and those conversations are supposed to be highly, highly, highly confidential, and he spills not only about himself but about another person getting a top position in this white house. these picks are defining to your presidency. and that would be defining in a very bad way. it's not necessarily a productive person to put in that position unless you want that person to do very well for himself because that will happen. "the wall street journal" reports that retired marine general james mattis is likely to be named as defense secretary. i'm not saying anything that hasn't been laid out before the eyes of viewers.

trump praised mattis saying i met with a number of other generals. they say he is the finest there is. he's being seriously, seriously considered for secretary of defense, which is i think it's time for maybe a general. look at what's going on. we can't beat anybody. we don't win anymore at anything. we don't win on the border. we don't win with trade. we certainly don't win with the military. general mattis is a strong highly dignified man. the law requires secretary of defense to be out of law for seven years. it's been just 3 1/2 since mattis retired. congress could pass a law to ease his appointment. >> if you want to know the level of respect donald trump has for general mattis, read "the new york times" yesterday where donald trump said effectively he flipped on torture in the space of one line from general mattis who told donald trump that torture doesn't work. give me a pack of cigarettes and a six pack of beers and i can

get him to flip. >> you have to pack your patience. >> did you pack your patience? >> accidents everywhere. mattis though really has already had a big impact on donald trump. >> yeah. >> if you talk to him and certainly it happened yesterday with "the new york times," also i think you're seeing a better understanding of exactly what it takes to run an intel agency. all of these things, you can tell he's surrounding himself with general mattis and others with some good people that's actually impacting his other picks. >> well, the charleston post and courier reports that nikki haley has been selected to become president-elect trump's ambassador to the united nations. her acceptance of the cabinet level post is expected to be announced today. currently in her second term, she's the first female governor

of indian descent and the first woman to accept a senior position. >> most importantly here if you look at this, this is donald trump saying as he's saying with mitt romney, i don't care what you said about me in the past. you know, i care about governing this country effectively in the future. americans seem to be picking up on this. nikki haley was critical of donald trump from the beginning. pretty tough on him in fact. and now -- >> not by the new standard. >> not by the new standard but by donald trump's standard or you and my's standard, she was not on his side. team of rivals is used too much. >> she was a rubio supporter and very tepid even when he became the nominee. >> now she's getting to work. >> mitt romney was extraordinarily tough. i think what donald trump is doing is he has a lot -- i think he does have a lot of political

capital with his base and people who supported him. and he's exchanging that capital a little bit like currency for currency trying to earn hopefully it seems that maybe just by talking about rudy giuliani he's earning street cred with the establishment. i like his -- >> you mean romney? >> mitt romney, i'm sorry. mitt romney. newt gingrich has been promoting rudy giuliani saying we need someone very tough to negotiate. and that may be true. on the one side you have the -- >> we've got donald trump to negotiate. we don't -- you don't need fire and more kerosene on top of the fire. >> i tend to agree with you. if you look at the military picks and mattis, it seems to me that mattis has -- i hope -- he doesn't want to use the military. if you do have to use it, use it in full force. >> have you seen some of his quotes, willie? have you seen some of mattis' quotes? we can't say all of them on the air. unbelievable. >> you want a diplomat who keeps

you out of war. war is the failure of diplomacy. romney would be great counterbalance. >> just like nikki haley, mitt romney shows that donald trump is bigger than everybody took him for being and he's actually interested in putting together a successful -- like he said to the "times," i want to put together a successful administration. this nikki haley pick again is a great step that direction. >> you have to give trump credit for being willing to climb back in off the limb he was out on with respect to some of these folks and put people like romney and nikki haley in. obviously he was more than a little bit short of diversity so far in the picks he's made so adding nikki haley helps him there. i think rudy giuliani would be one of the worst mistakes anyone could possibly make. don't get me wrong. >> please stop. >> i know you disagree with me about that. >> that's one of the most outrageous comments i heard anyone say on this set in quite

some time. >> since yesterday even. >> you would prefer rudy giuliani to mitt romney? >> i said rudy giuliani would be -- >> i'm sleep deprived and i've been on the west side highway. i thought you said mitt romney was. >> no. >> okay. can we start again? it started on the west side and then i cut across to the fdr and then by the time i'm down around 71st on fdr -- go. it never happened. >> rudy giuliani would be one of the worst picks that donald trump could possibly make for secretary of state. >> that seems wise. why do you say that? that's the smartest thing i've ever heard on this set. >> i want to say this because i want to make one little point without you thinking in any way, shape or form i think rudy giuliani should be secretary of state. mitt romney would bring adult maturity, serious guy and all that. he doesn't know much about

foreign policy. he had one great comment -- >> this guy spent his life traveling around the world making deals for bane capital. do you think he does what he does -- if somebody said to me steve rattner doesn't know anything about the world, i would say are you kidding me? he, like mitt romney, is a businessman who is traveling all over the world. mitt romney hasn't been hanging out in -- >> what did hillary clinton have? >> hillary clinton was a senator for eight years and served on the armed services committee and had a fair amount of exposure. >> i like mitt romney. i think it's a good pick. bane capital didn't operate all over the world consistently mostly a domestic u.s. firm. i'm not qualified to be secretary of state. i never interacted with them on any diplomatic level. >> if you look at his work at bane capital and he did do a lot of international work.

you look at the fact that he saved the olympics when they were mired in corruption. of course he had to deal with people all over the world to do that. utah olympics. add on top of that, it's no small feat he got a lot of things right that the president of the united states who had been getting top security briefings for four years got wrong. >> famously right in the 2012 debate about russia. if you are worried about donald trump's temperament and hot head and will bomb the hell out of isis and withdraw from our treaty agreements, mitt romney is the opposite of that. the critique is he is too mi milk toast. >> in 2010 or 2011, his policy team invited a couple of us to come up and spend the day with

him. the thing i learned about mitt romney that day is he's a terrific student. he really thinks deeply about policy issues. he has a lot of substantive knowledge. one of his faults was if he didn't know everything top to bottom, he wouldn't comment on it. >> that's one of the things unlike rudy giuliani who comments too much, the other thing about mitt romney, jeremy peters, is he is a company man. he does not -- if donald trump selects him as secretary of state, he works for president of the united states. when he steps off that plane in beijing or moscow, he's only going to say what the president of the united states wants him to say unlike a lot of recent secretary of states that we've had. >> that loyalty is part of the reason he's considering this job so carefully. you have a number of people in

his orbit who are saying, yes, do this. do this for the service of the country. you can help check donald trump any impulses he may have too impetuous, you can reign those in. on the other side there are people in mitt romney's orbit who say everything donald trump touches turns to chaos and disgrace eventually. do you really want yourself associated with that if things go south? there's that internal dynamic going on. i think the big question is if mitt romney becomes secretary of state, how carefully, how closely will donald trump listen to him? that's what we don't know. >> i can tell you, i've actually talked to mitt romney and a couple other people around him. there is no question that if asked, he would serve the president of the united states, and he would do what the president of the united states told him to do. >> he's just not running around saying it. >> new national polls show americans are positive about donald trump's job so far. in a cnn/orc poll of adults, 53%

say he'll be a good or fair president. >> look at that. two to one on change. that's amazing. >> a quinnipiac university poll of registered voters says that nearly 6 in 10 are optimistic about the next four years under donald trump. >> are you surprised by that? 60% optimistic after that ugly campaign? >> down 19,000 yesterday. that was optimistic. >> we'll get to that. >> you talk about what a difference a week or so can make. >> 53% believe a trump administration will take the country in the right direction. 52% believe that president-elect trump's policies will help the economy. 3 in 10 say they will hurt. and the cnn poll found that 73% believe he will likely be successful at repealing and replacing obamacare. 64% say he will succeed at renegotiating nafta.

60% are confidence he will create jobs in challenged areas. >> mika, those are extraordinary positive numbers. any president would like those numbers coming in. especially coming out of an ugly election. most presidents begin with the wind at their back like this but given how ugly this race was and given the fact his approval ratings were in the 30s until last week, why do you think these numbers have reversed so quickly? >> it's the same thing that a lot of people sort of for some reason couldn't see in the lead up that there's a large swath of this country that knows exactly who donald trump is and they attach his name with success. >> those are mandate numbers. >> period. >> every one of those things he got big numbers on, obamacare wasn't in his agenda. building the wall wasn't in his agenda. >> they think he can get things done. i'm not saying it's right or wrong. >> i actually looked up some of these numbers yesterday and got slightly different numbers. his approval rating 34% during

the campaign is now 42%. >> which is by the way the highest it's ever been. >> highest he's ever been. >> it's moving up. are you trying to find the black cloud in the silver sidelilinin? >> i gives you facts. >> facts are positive on these numbers. i want to hear the rest of them but before you let us say pee all over the parade, can you admit that these are pretty stunning numbers? >> they're very stunning numbers. >> do you think they are really? >> yeah. >> now go ahead. pee on the parade. >> i happen to have looked on these numbers because i was curious so trump has gone from 34 to 42. obama when he -- >> hold on. i'm not good with percentages. what percentage of increase would that be? >> that would be a big increase. it's about a 50% increase. >> wow. that's impressive. that's great number. >> what was obama's number when

he came? >> i don't know. i would rather be low than high. >> you would? >> absolutely. any politician wants to -- >> it's all about expectations. >> wait we just talked about expectations for five minutes. >> these are expectations for change. people are saying give this man a chance to change the country, and we'll back him. if the democrats come out and say we're not going to resist all his change, they'll be in trouble here. >> obama came in as black jesus. i don't want to come in as redneck jesus if i am president of the united states. you want to come in where people like ronald reagan actually underestimate you and the media has done donald trump a great favor. what have they told us over the past week? he's a nazi. he's bringing nazis back to america. wait. the press -- you guys are fools. you all are fools. >> come on now. >> if you hate donald trump and you want to destroy donald trump, you all are fools because you do it the wrong way.

people that i respect, you guys keep tweeting about nazis and this and that and guess what? there were 200 freaks in a public building, i don't know why we allow them in a public building, but you would think that donald trump is bringing the third right to america. i heard that he's going to rip up the constitution. >> people do want to hear him push back. >> he has pushed back. i'm just saying they set the bar so low that all he does is go there's a bar. i'll walk over it. >> it does play into trump's hands because his supporters of sick of being affiliated with white supremacists and racists and that's what they're hearing. it's a misread. if you're going to call supporters you want to win back races, you won't do well in the next election. >> by the way, i saw there was a story yesterday the election is explained in heroin addiction. i'm serious. the people who voted for donald trump this year who voted for

barack obama eight years ago, heroin addiction explains it. this is where you will keep losing. >> you forgot, they're also done. less educated heroin addicts voted for donald trump. i saw that chart. >> did you see that chart? the educated heroin addicts probably wrote in barack obama. go ahead. >> obama came in at 68. >> that's awesome. >> bush 43 after a highly contested election came in at -- >> i don't know. >> 59. bill clinton in a three-way election which he got 43% of the vote if i remember correctly came in at 58. >> wow. >> so let rick and i explain this to kids thinking of running for president of the united states. if you come in, you want low expectations or high expectations? >> low. they're giving it to him. >> you have low expectations that the press is painting.

>> this is who we are. it's ugly. and that's why polls come out and you go, wow, okay. >> a lot of people is doing what president obama asked the public to do which is let's give him a chance. it may be a brief honeymoon period. it's not much of a honeymoon period historically but the country is saying let's see what the guy is going to do. >> he may fail. who knows. let's not call the guy a nazi for the first three -- if you hate him, don't keep lowering expectations but can we just raise a glass right now. thanksgiving glass. everybody a toast to the president of the united states who showed great dignity and graciousness to donald trump -- not to donald trump but to america. there you go. >> cheers. >> and continues to. >> he does. he's amazing. >> drink your coffee.

>> thank you, mr. president, for showed the class that george w. bush showed. >> i have to get to other headlines now. federal authorities are investigating the deadly school bus crash in chattanooga, tennessee. according to an affidavit, the 24-year-old bus driver johnthony walker was driving well over the 30-mile-per-hour limit on a narrow winding road when he lost control of the bus. five children were killed. six children remain in icu. durham school services, the private company that owns the bus, has had 142 injury crashes and three fatalities in the last two years across the country. also making news this morning, north carolina's governor is officially calling for a recount of votes over the tight race between him and his opponent. governor pat mccrory formally requested the move yesterday. mccrory finished with fewer than 10,000 votes behind his

challenger democratic roy cooper. mccrory raised concerns of voting fraud despite no evidence surfacing of that taking place and the stock market continues its record run. the dow jones industrial average reached 19,000 for the first time in its 120-year history. >> it's hard to ring the bell when nazis are thrusting their arms into the air. >> s&p reached 500 also a record high closing at 2,200 for the first time. >> were you surprised by that number as our finance director? >> i am quite surprised. i even brought some charts. >> we'll talk about that. >> everyone hold on. >> record market run. also ahead, james o'neil is here on set and congressman peter king and before we go to break, bill karins with a check on the

forecast. pack your patience. >> today is the day where biggest travel day but the weather is going to cooperate for the most part. snow and ice in wisconsin and minnesota. worst of the thunderstorms are down here in east texas just north of the houston area. shreveport has been in the rain all morning long. that's moving across interstate 20. memphis is also going to be very wet. let's get into the travel maps for today. these are the airport concerns. i have four of the major airports. the possibility -- not guaranteed but possibility for significant to major delays. detroit, o'hare, minneapolis and seattle. in detroit and also in chicago, it will get better as the day goes on. the worst of it will be earlier on today. improving conditions late tonight. as far as seattle goes, that rain will move into the northwest later this evening and overnight tonight. the northwest if you travel late tonight and early thanksgiving morning, that's going to be the worst of it. the roads today looks like the ohio valley and interstate 65, chicago to nashville, that's the rainy spot. be careful down there on 10 and 20 in louisiana with

thunderstorms. i don't expect horrible problems. traveling on the east coast, off to a good start with clear conditions in new york city. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me.

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he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast.

>> by the way, just to show you, follow-up on what i said last block about the press just not able to -- whatever. a drama king never lets up. "the washington post" calls the president-elect right here a drama king. i wonder -- >> he likes to keep people guessing. >> whatever. so look at some of the names that are being run around right now and some of these are closer than others. governor nikki haley we understand will be announced and of course general mattis all but locked up that position. mitt romney along are rudy

giuliani still being discussed there. >> that harold? >> mike pompeo, i'm getting from the foreign policy community in washington, d.c., universal respect for congressman pompeo which is great news. first in his class at harvard. he didn't go to alabama. he's okay. harold ford, my gosh, what a great pick that would be. a democrat and also most importantly a michigan fan. they're going into a big game with ohio state. you want diversity in the cabinet. i'm sure this steve guy is an ohio state fan. harold is a guy also who knows everybody on the hill. everybody loves harold on the hill. if you're trying to put together a big transportation bill, you have known harold for a very

long time. that would be great move. >> also has great ties in the business world so you can do that public/private partnership. >> i think he's been on this show once. >> harold? >> we should have him back. >> we should have him back. >> we fight with him so we're family. >> that would be great. what a great pick politically. >> up next, a conversation with zbigniew brzezinski. what he says about the future of u.s./moscow relations. >> an announcement from mike barnicle, they are not yet going to take away his passport and force him out of the country. >> we'll be right back. >> he won't be parks commissioner either.

♪ (laughs..) here it is. ♪ ♪ hey dad!

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he wears his army hat, he gets awalks aroundliments. with his army shirt looking all nice. and then people just say, "thank you for serving our country" and i'm like, that's my dad. male vo: no one deserves a warmer welcome home. that's why we're hiring 10,000 members of the military community by the end of 2017. i'm very proud of him. male vo: comcast. >> that takes us back to simpler days. >> that was fun. >> how long ago was that? >> a couple months. >> as donald trump continues to put his national security team together, no one knows the

challenges involved better than -- >> than me? >> not you. >> former national security adviser for president carter dr. zbigniew brzezinski. not you. yesterday we spoke with my dad and began by asking him about the potential threats and opportunities in donald trump's outreach to russia. >> the threats are obvious. they could produce a great deal of misconceptions on both sides and then disappointment and resentme resentment. someone has to be very deliberate and cautious but generally speaking it's a desirable thing to do. russia is no longer a communist state. that's very important to realize. it hasn't yet defined itself effectively as a democracy. it's still uncertain. it has a lot of resentment including against us. it's a country in transition. i think if we're clever about it, perhaps we can help them transition effectively and become a constructive, significant member of the global

community, one of the top three, the united states, china and russia. >> so the president-elect on the campaign trail has often talked about china and he's talked about vladimir putin often criticized for being a little too cozy with him for having some sort of bromance with him. >> make every effort but do so calmly and patiently knowing what is at stake. i think our role in the world even if not dominant in simplistic fashion is still pre-eminent and america is needed to pull together some larger coalition that can deal with global problems and in that larger coalition of course america, china, and a changing russia could be pre-eminent. >> so talk about what the president-elect is going through right now. the process of selecting leaders

to head up cabinet agencies around him? you obviously have seen this up close and personal many times. how important are his first appointments, his first three or four appointments to set the tone for theed a st ed administ? >> setting the tone is very important. without naming names because i won't, there is some ambivalence about some choices particularly in terms of their very recent international conduct which raises question as to the extent of which they're very familiar with the name in the game. by in large, anyone that would be president has to go through a genuine investigation of possible candidates and a kind of de facto deceptive effort to convey the impression that he's considering many other people even when he has no intention to consider them.

but that's normal. that's part of the game. >> in setting up his national security team, what would be your key bit of advice for the incoming president? >> at some point he, in fact, has to give a major speech on foreign affairs and on the historical era and condition in which we find ourselves in it. i think this is something that american people have to come to realize that our future is interwoven now increasingly with the rest of the world. >> what are some of the biggest concerns that you have for the next four years for the president-elect and his inbox on the international scene? what would you put at the top of that list that he's going to need to be concerned about? >> i would be concerned about how america conducts itself. is the president experienced enough to set a steady tone, a tone which has an historic vision to it, a sense of commitment but also understanding how the world is

dramatically changing right now. i think that is the kind of balance the president has to show and it's too early to tell if he can or he cannot. i think the situation is still uncertain but one certainly hopes that he will do well and he seems rather imaginative and bright so i hope he will. >> i'm curious, dad, were you surprised by hillary clinton's loss? >> yes, of course i was. in fact, i was so surprised that i went to sleep thinking that she had won. i woke up at 7:00 a.m. in the morning, put on the television and literally my whole body just rose and jump out of bed. everything at once. i was stunned. >> stunned. so on this show, you talked about one of the biggest problems that you foresaw coming in the next decade, and it was rising income inequality.

>> when you have stagnation and a rather severe case of unemployment, the sense of social injustice can be terribly demoralizing and politically in the long run very dangerous. >> could this be what you were talking about? >> this and brexit and what people expect will be happening in italy and france and germany in the coming year. >> in part so. we have very major dilemmas. our system responsive to public needs and public sense of dissatisfaction and public feelings of being exploited, those are realities. to that we have to add a new one namely the political system itself lacks firm structures, cohesion, unity. >> dr. zbigniew brzezinski. thanks, dad. i'll see you at thanksgiving. you're coming to me, right? >> i hope so. for not too long. not too long. >> i'll have a nice dinner for

you. >> great talking to you, dr. brzezinski. >> always an honor. >> so i have to give you the back story on that. by the way, how frightening was that five years ago he predicted what would happen in 2016. growing income inequality would lead to exactly what's -- >> i'm stuck by the fact he doesn't want to spend too much time. >> so he is pushing back hard, mika tells me, on staying more than one night. he was going to stay two to three nights. see the grandkids. walk the dog. and so he bringshat fight. i will eat your dinner and then leave or everyone will die. >> i love when the little windows into mika's childhood spill onto tv. yes, i will come but not for too long? >> what is it? i'm 10 again. >> he doesn't want to disappoint you. >> he wants to go home.

be with my mom. >> give me the food and i'm out of here. give me a six pack of pbr. >> that's shots of vodka. >> it was yesterday with this "new york times" meeting it was fascinating. >> where to begin? >> given the things he said about failing "new york times" he said in the meeting yesterday that "the new york times" is a great american jewel and great respect for everyone in the room. >> if you're going to kick around one part of the media and embrace another, he chose very wisely. kick around the tv guys. and go pay your respect to "the new york times." we had somebody from "the new york times" who was in that meeting. columnist frank bruni was there and retweeted thomas friedman's fascinating observation of the meeting yesterday. >> and "wall street journal's" carol lee joins the discussion.

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>> they're lovely dogs. i like my dogs. >> three dogs are enough. at what point are too many dogs she has three dogs. >> three dogs and two cats and rabbits. >> the rabbits need to go. i think the rabbits could go. >> there's a problem. >> trying to figure out what's what. >> i would keep the dogs. >> all three? >> yeah. dogs are great. >> you say get rid of them. send them to a farm or something like that? >> i leave that to you. >> wow. >> happy thanksgiving. >> donald trump at first shocked

wall street as shocked wall street did a swan dive before coming back to record highs. steve rattner has a new look at how the markets are gauging the economic trends. let's start with a rally after donald trump's win. donald trump said this would be brexit times five. a lot of people thought that the markets would collapse. >> this is even where experts were wrong because experts predicted the markets would collapse. the dow went down 700 points when it first looked like trump was going to win and then it just turned around and went from there. starting on november 8th, what happened was the market, which had been going up a little bit, just took off. it's up 3.1% since election day and not only is the s&p, which is what this is at a record, but so is the dow and so the nasdaq and that's the first time that's actually happened since 1999.

what really happened was the market woke up and realized they elected an enormously pro-business president. one who is going to cut taxes on business and ease regulation and one that's going to make it easier for companies to make profits. >> really quickly before the second chart, it looks like nikki haley is in fact going to be a cabinet level u.n. ambassador. >> i think u.n. has always been cabinet level. >> just confirming. >> we don't have to confirm it. >> let's confirm. alex said 90 seconds. can i have my 90 seconds? >> go ahead. >> we're going to talk about rabbits more. >> okay. rabbits. >> so why did the stock market go up? >> tell us. >> so if you look at some of the specific sectors, you can see how they relate to the things that trump is talking about.

he's talking about infrastructure. he's talking about loosening regulations on banks but interest rates have been going up. we'll get to that in a second. he's talking about bringing back coal. coal is up. spending more on defense and giving drug companies an easier hand for prices. >> can i ask about hospitals? obviously there's going to be some sort of health care reform. why do you see hospitals going up? most health care providers i talk to say this change as a positive. >> for pharma, biotech and folks like that, it's good because they'll have less regulation and able to raise prices more. the potential repeal of obamacare worries people about hospitals because you'll have fewer people insured and that actually ends up costing the hospitals money. so the last thing that i just want to talk about is what

happened to interest rates. just as the stock market took off, the bond market also says wait a minute, this is a big change in life for us because what trump's tax cuts mean almost certainly are much larger deficits and larger deficits mean higher interest rates. judging by the 10-year treasury, interest rates went up half a percentage point almost immediately after trump's selection. half a percentage point is a lot. >> let mesk you quickly. if you were an investor and you wanted to invest in knowing that deficits were going to explode and the national debt was going to explode because it is, what is would your investment be? what do you invest in? it's going to be deficit spending over the next four years. there's going to be no restraint. >> right. so what you invest in are the kinds of things that basically the money is going to go to, which is going to be the heavy

infrastructure related things. interest rates are going to go up. that's good for banks. banks will go up some more. general deregulation of business. for example, the cable stocks went up a lot because of the idea that he was not going to impose neutrality on the internet. that's good for cable guys. >> companies like caterpillar, ge -- >> caterpillar up something like 16%. >> what about failing "new york times?" >> the failing "new york times" added more new digital subscribers in the week after trump elected than any other week since it started digital business. >> frank bruni takes us inside "the new york times" meeting with donald trump. we'll be back with more "morning joe." >> and steve rattner needs a book with these charts. doesn't he? yeah, with liberty mutual all i

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yes, ideas are scary, and messy and fragile. but under the proper care, they become something beautiful. >> on wednesday president obama will final his final thanksgiving turkey. after all these years i'm not sure he enjoys it as much as he used to. check it out. >> today i have the awesome responsibility of granting a presidential pardon to a pair of turkeys. we want wait to pardon these turkeys. and with that we'll bestow the official pardon. the most powerful position in the world brings with it many

awesome and solemn responsibilities. this is not one of them. it is a little puzzling that i do this every year. oh boy. >> that's honesty. >> puzzling. it's puzzling. >> it took the last one -- i'm not doing this. i'm just not doing it. >> let's see if alex is on his game here. the greatest turkey pardoning ever was when sarah palin -- >> right after the election. >> she went to pardon the turkey and the guys in the background -- >> right. >> i remember that. >> right there in the back killing turkeys. >> i pardon this turkey. >> i have to see that.

>> it was like the scene in "fargo" when he puts the guy in the wood chipper. >> they're alive at first, right? >> of course. they're fresh. >> and they put them into a chipper. >> alex? >> november of 2008. >> we're working on it. >> welcome back to "morning joe." top of the hour on this lovely note about that. november 23rd everyone ready for thanksgiving? >> ready. >> i am ready for the roadrunner to come to my house and leave. still with us on set, former treasury official steve rattner. "the new york times" columnist frank bruni and former ted cruz communications director rick tyler and on capitol hill, "the new york times" reporter jeremy peters joins the discussion and white house correspondent for "the wall street journal" carol lee joins us and editor of "the fix" at "the washington post," chris cillizza. it's thanksgiving.

>> you need to do a book of these charts. >> okay. >> i would buy them in a second. everywhere we go we'll have copies. >> you should have a chart book. >> amazon discount. >> good beach read for the summer. >> president-elect donald trump had a wide ranging interview with "the new york times" yesterday. the meeting came after hours tweeted that he canceled it because terms and conditions were changed at the last moment. not nice. >> and not true. >> continued to cover me inaccurately with a nasty tone. once inside, the tone was apparently not nasty with trump reportedly saying the "times" is a great, great american jewel. a world jewel. in the meeting, trump confirmed the news that we first broke yesterday morning that he will not look to prosecute hillary clinton for the private e-mail server issue. trump told the "times," i don't want to hurt the clintons. i don't. she went through a lot and suffered greatly in many

different ways and i'm not looking for hurt them at all. the campaign was vicious. that news has angered some trump supporters with breitbart running headline broken promise and trump indicated he could shift away from other fiery campaign positions like on climate change and waterboarding. in the "times" interview, trump was surprised by position of retired general mattis on waterboarding. i met with him at length. i said what do you think of waterboarding? he said i never found it to be useful. i found give me a pack of cigarettes and a couple beers and i would do better with that than i do with torture. i was very impressed by that answer. i was surprised because he's known as being the toughest guy. >> frank bruni, just talk generally about the meeting yesterday. we have a lot more to talk about. climate change and everything else. talk about the meeting itself. >> it was extremely cordial.

previous day he met with tv journalists and report was it was not a good meeting. what was really interesting is trump wants the favor of whatever audience he's with. he takes the temperature of a room and adjusts accordingly. the trump who sat down with us yesterday was not the trump you heard thundering from podiums across the country. >> who was he? >> he was someone who was trying to project i'm a reasonable, even moderate guy. keeping with some of the latter cabinet appointments that we're now seeing. he was saying he was open-minded about things he did not seem open-minded about at all. climate change. torture as we just talked about. that was a very interesting moment because when he said mattis said this to me and i thought you've been campaigning for 18 months. you've been talking about how we need to waterboard and look at torture anew and only now when this person said this to you are you questioning your own kind of

fervent believe. >> the foreign policy makers were too busy signing letters saying they would never support him to actually go in and brief him. amazing what happens. >> isn't it his responsibility to be briefed and go out and get information? >> of course it is. a big pushback against him and he could have been far more intellectually curious. i'm saying you see the effect when he has people like general mattis around talking to him every day. >> that's the reassuring part of the meeting. this did not seem like a man fixed in his beliefs. it did not seem like a man who had fully examined his beliefs although he campaigned for all that time. he still seems to be in a very strange way an unformed piece of clay. >> he's just not ideological. we've said that from the very beginning. the man is not ideological, willie. it's sort of a realist. what gets results? what makes the most sense? how do i -- he certainly was an

ideologue on the campaign trail. the guy is going to start with a massive most likely transportation bill with the help of chuck schumer and nancy pelosi. >> let's not forget he was a democratic two years ago. if you talk about a core set of beliefs, they seem to be pretty malleable. i thought what was interesting was the conversation about all of his business entanglements where he basically said the law is totally on my side, which is true, there are fraud and other ethics rules that would apply to him. he said i don't necessarily have to unwind my business. i don't have to do the things that people call for me to do. a blind trust. put my assets to someone else. i can go on it with business as usual which is scary to a lot of people. >> he kept stressing and chris cillizza wrote well about this. he kept stressing that he's under no legal obligation to do anything. and the message was sort of whatever i do is more than i'm actually obliged to do. it made you wonder how much is he going to do?

>> talk about this now with chris cillizza. let me say a couple things about this. he is correct. the law is on his side because when congress passed the law they exempted the president and vice president for constitutional reasons. that's point one. point two, i served in the executive branch. i know what the law says. for everybody else in the government, you have to comply so strictly you would be shocked. and strictly does not mean a blind trust. the government actually doesn't recognize blind trust because once you put stuff in a blind trust, you know it is there and you can assume it's still there and go about your business that way. the only thing the government accepts is divestment. you have to get rid of anything you have that presents a conflict. i had to do it. i'm saying if you look at a billionaire -- >> this doesn't apply. >> my point is as a criminal statute if you violate this. my point is that it seems to me that the president should voluntarily say everybody else in my whole administration is

complying with this law. i should live to that standard. >> he should lead by example. >> should lead by example. >> he's not going to divest of all of his holdings. >> he gave us reasons. he said real estate is hard to get rid of. et cetera. he works a boast into things. he said no other president has had to deal with the level of personal wealth that i have. >> penny had to deal with plenty of complicated investments hard to sell. >> there was a law that applied to her that doesn't apply to the president of the united states. >> i'm simply saying he should lead by example. >> chris cillizza, you wrote on this. what's your take? >> well, you know, i think i'm with steve, which is you are absolutely right, joe. it's not illegal. in fact, it's decidedly legal for him to have conflicts of interest. the quote he had echoes rudy giuliani who said a few weeks ago essentially it's impossible for the president to have conflicts of interest according to this law. the problem is i do think there's a difference between

legal and right. and i think that this is very on that line. if everyone who works under you is required to adhere to a certain thing, i don't think it would be a bad thing to take some steps toward transparency even if you're not required to do so. now, it's harder not just because he's wealthy but because a lot of what he does is add his name to things in branding agreements that are owned by other people. it's not as though he can just sell everything that's his off because he doesn't necessarily own it. he is giving the name to it. you can't make other people divest or put that in a blind trust. it's complicated. you're right, joe. at the end of the day this is absolutely legal. i'm just saying right, illegal or indifferent, i criticized hillary clinton for that saying i hadn't broken laws with the e-mail server. no. that's what the fbi director

found but there's a difference between breaking laws and doing the right thing. >> that's the biggest message. it ultimately matters to people. he is to think about down the line. >> no doubt about it. carol lee, you also, the problem here is it's not like congress can pass a law retroactively or anybody else that would apply to this president. all they can do is pass one that would apply to the next president. >> the question for donald trump is how much he wants this to be an ongoing story overshadowing his presidency. and how he chooses to handle this and what he chooses to do will determine that. and, you know, if he does continue to be involved in his businesses and he had this conversation where he mentioned windmills off the coast of his golf club in scotland. if things like that are happening, it's going to be a constant narrative of his presidency and so he's got to

decide, i think, rather quickly how much he wants this to be the narrative of this presidency. it will. people are going to constantly look into this. everything he does will be examined. interactions with foreign leaders will be looked at in a different way. if you look at what president obama said earlier this week about how he handled things, he didn't have nearly the level of business ties or money that donald trump did, but he was kind of urging him to make this a nonissue because it will get in the way of actually doing business with the public business. >> thomas friedman writes in "the new york times" at lunch donald trump gives critics hope. the campaign is over. the struggle for donald trump's soul has just begun. trump learns by talking to people and not reading because so few thought he would win many of those gathered around him and had his ear with extreme characters but now he's exposing himself to and hearing from much wider net of people. he mentioned that he had telephone conversations with bill gates and with apple ceo

tim cook and he's stressed that he wants to succeed. i'm doing this to do a good job. for those of us who oppose trump's election, it's not time to let down our guard and stop drawing red lines where necessary but for moderate republicans and democratic business leaders, they need to dive in now and try to pull him toward the center for a meeting between the news maker and this news organization that has covered him without fear or favor, the lunch was fairly relaxed but not without some jousting. asked if he read "the new york times," trump said, i do read it unfortunately. i would live about 20 years longer if i didn't. >> did that capture the general mood in the room? >> i think that's very fair. absolutely. i think tom writes there about something very important which is you did get the impression that donald trump is very influenced by the last people he's talked to so maybe the strategy to put him on the right course is president to make sure the last person that has his ear is the most sensible one.

>> does he stick to the things he said in the room yesterday today. hillary clinton in front of 70 million people at the debate he said i'll put you in jail. i'll get an investigator to look into you and now he said yesterday i don't want to hurt the clintons. forget that. >> he said in the meeting very quickly i disavow white nationalists. it's easy to say in a room of two dozen journalists of "the new york times." >> i'm optimistic. i think what you see is a guy who as many people do ran as a candidate. had to do and say things whether he believed them or not to get elected and now he's going to be a president. you behave differently as a president. >> it's pivot. >> he is pivoting. >> it is a pivot. we talked about this at the end of the campaign when we were saying trump had a shot. you look at trend lines. look at the trend lines and people can do this today. draw a trend line of movement where he's stayed the same. where he's moved to the center. where he's moved to the right.

i can't think off the top of my head where he moved to the right since being elected, but i can think of climate change, some of these selections, some opponents, and other issues. >> torture. >> obviously. that was a big, big move to the center. it seems so far that most of the trend lines are to the center. i haven't seen where he's starting right. >> if this is a steady trajectory. we saw donald trump during the campaign. there was a lot of zigzag. this guy can be erratic. >> let's see how the country is feeling about this. new national polls show americans are positive about donald trump's job so far for the most part. cnn/orc poll 53% say trump will be a fairly or very good president. 66% say yes when asked if trump will be able to change the country. 32% say no. a quinnipiac university poll of registered voters says that nearly 6 in 10 are optimistic about the next four years under

donald trump and 53% believe a trump administration will take the country in a right position and 52% say trump's policies will help the economy and that cnn poll found that 73% of respondents believe he likely will be successful in repealing and replacing obamacare. 64% say he'll succeeded at renegotiating nafta and 60% are confident he'll create jobs in challenged areas. >> chris cillizza, what do you make of the numbers? >> well, i should say for a traditional president-elect, these numbers are predictable in that this is a honeymoon. you look better after you've won then when you're in a midst of a campaign. despite everything else, we're a generally optimistic country. we like to believe that things can and will get better. that said, this is an opportunity for donald trump. these are the best his numbers have been on any of these things

in a very long time. i do think give the guy credit for picking someone like nikki haley who was not only someone who endorsed marco rubio in the primary, but was someone who came out very strongly against donald trump repeatedly when he made some of the comments he made. if he is to put, say, a mitt romney in at state over rudy giuliani, that would be another sign. the guy deserves credit. who he was in the campaign can be different than who he is as president. that's what you see in those numbers. people believing that, okay, maybe this is something different. i think if he does do something like nikki haley and mitt romney, who you choose, these are big early decisions that shape a presidency. who you choose matters. >> carol lee, chime in on that. mitt romney versus rudy giuliani is really actually the gamut there. >> you know, if you take a step back and you look at where we

were right before the election or the night of the election, what everybody's perception was of what a donald trump presidency might look like, it's breathtaking how different the tone he has set on everything from who he's considering to be in his administration to his policy proposals that he's said a number of things. we were talking about them earlier. climate change. torture. he said he's not going to look at the libel laws and embracing "the new york times" and looking at mitt romney and now you have nikki haley. it's dramatically different from what anybody would have expected and if he does indeed go with someone like mitt romney over rudy giuliani, that sends a really strong signal that he is genuine -- these are not just people that he's looking at to send signals that he's actually willing to embrace his opponents and folks that no one would have expected he would actually seriously consider. >> jeremy peters, final

thoughts? >> i think that while these numbers look good right now, we should also not lose sight of the fact that there will probably not be a very long honeymoon. i know that inside the trump administration right now they do not anticipate having a honeymoon. that's on both sides of the aisle. they don't expect it to be easy to work with democrats or work with people inside their own party. you have donald trump being tugged in two directions from within his own party right now. just yesterday you saw the backlash. think of what he did yesterday. he went and said or his aides said they would not prosecute hillary clinton and not seek to investigate her further and then sat down with the dreaded hated "the new york times." and there are people on the right who i think are very uncomfortable that he's softening a lot of what he said in the campaign. so going forward that is going to be a big problem for him. how does he reassure the right that he isn't betraying them. >> since it hasn't been a problem for him yet, and he's

done this a lot, it seems like his people stay with him and he doesn't mean that. they kind of understand trump speak. i don't think we can say he's going to have a hard time until he's had a hard time. the bar is low. think about eight years ago. that was a very hard way to start. >> in the middle of the republican primary, he actually said some nice things about planned parenthood which would have destroyed any other candidate at that moment. >> repeatedly and in debates. >> if you run as a social conservative in your first interview afterwards you say i'm not going to challenge same-sex marriage. it's the law of the land. on "60 minutes." >> wait. you said -- he goes -- >> no more talk of the wall. >> it might be a fence. >> flowering shrubs. >> i expect the wall will be

built. >> jeremy peters, chris cillizza, carol lee, thank you all. frank bruni, stay with us if you can. ahead on "morning joe," peter king joins us live. also ahead -- >> i've not been in contact with the president-elect. i have been in contact with the secretary of homeland security jeh johnson. i made clear to him how committed we are to the president-elect's security, but i've also made clear to him that there are extraordinary costs involved and that we want to start the process of understanding what kind of federal reimbursement we can get. >> how do you protect the president-elect in the country's biggest city? it's not cheap. the commissioner of the new york police department joins us live next on "morning joe." to do the best for your pet, you should know more about the food you choose. with beyond, you have a natural pet food that goes beyond telling ingredients to showing where they come from.

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welcome back to "morning joe." commissioner of the new york city police department, james o'neil. good to have you with us this morning. tomorrow one of the greatest security challenges for any police force in the world, the thanksgiving day parade. for first time ever every cross street on the parade route will be blocked off. is there a threat that you're looking at different and apart from what we've seen in the past? >> there's some rhetoric that we've been watching. there's always a threat stream that we take a look at. we thought it was important that we cut off just to make everybody in new york feel comfortable and cut off those cross streets and we have 83 sand trucks and 114 blocker vehicles we use to cut off the cross town traffic. no vehicles besides of course the vehicles in the parade will be allowed on the route. >> how are those decisions made? what level of rhetoric do you have to see to make a big decision like that?

>> there was a picture of new york city and thanksgiving day parade. we are lucky to have three of the best in the country as far as counterterrorism so we came up with that decision mutually and we have assets, so why not use them? >> you face another new challenge which is the president-elect of the united states just happens to live at one of the busiest intersections in the world, 57th and 5th or thereabouts. you blocked off space in front of trump tower. how challenging is that target and that threat for you? >> it's extremely challenging. i don't think there's a busier intersection in new york city. maybe times square would be busier. it's a busy place. we have a temporary plan in place and we're still working with the secret service. 57th street is closed between 5th and madison.

it's partially closed between 5th and 6th. pedestrian traffic is flowing mostly on the west side. on the east side if you're going to pass by the building, you have to go through a screening area. it's extremely challenging. we have truck restrictions on 5th avenue also. >> easier or better for you if the president-elect decided to perhaps live somewhere else? >> mr. trump being president-elect it's his decision to live wherever he wants. we're up to the challenge. the nypd, this is what we do. we handle large scale events if you look at fourth of july, look at new year's eve, you look at thanksgiving. this is what we do. we'll be able to handle it. >> so what do you say to pedestrians? what do you say to people that are driving? will it be a long-term plan that will make midtown more manageable? as willie said before, it was tough enough before you had this challenge put in front of you. >> 57 is probably the slowest

moving street in new york city. new yorkers are resilient. if fifth avenue becomes a place that's too crowded to walk down, they'll go down sixth or madison. we have the pedestrian flow moving now. it's tough on the west side of the street. there's a tremendous amount of people. it's moving. >> and willie touched on this before. what about the terror threat? have you noticed any increased chatter since donald trump's become president-elect? anything that causes you more of a concern? obviously new york was the most prepared city in the world before the election. any additional concerns? >> nothing specific. nothing credible. i'm always concerned. that's part of my job. there's a couple things that keep me up at night. counterterrorism and traditional crime do keep me up. we're more than up to the task. >> what about the crime rate? how are we doing? >> doing great. we're doing great. homicides we're at 298 year-to-date. shootings we're down tremendously about 10%.

down to 110 shootings and overall crime down almost 4%. i've been involved in stats since 1996. we've been tracking these stats since 1994. the murder rate is the lowest since 1957, the year i was born. >> what do you think accounts for that. >> a couple things account for that. hard work of the men and women at the nypd. we changed the way that we're policing in the city. we have neighborhood policing model and we also put our detective bureau assets under the chief detectives. we merged narcotics, vice, gang into the detective bureau so we do something that we call precision policing. very small percentage of the population in new york city involved in violence and the crime and we do have a limited amount of assets. it's a very big police department. we're gearing that all toward the people involved in violence. >> obviously 2014, ferguson was 2014, right? 2014-2015 policing has been on

the forefront of the public conversation. the debate. the relationship between police and the community. what are you doing in your new administration to make sure that the advances that were made by bill bratton continue forward in that area? >> well, it was bill bratton was -- third time i worked for him. i was chief of the department. highest ranking uniformed member of the service. >> should have seen the hair before he started working for bratton. he looked like peter frampton. >> that was before he became police commissioner. >> but we have something we call neighborhood policing now. i've been a cop for a long time. the way we used to do it, we would have -- if you worked in a precinct, half of the people would respond to 911 jobs. that's 20 to 25 radio runs a night. we're in that model of policing to not have time to make connection to anyone and other half would be involved in summary police activity. domestic violence, traffic enforcement, quality of life, anti-crime work, drug work. so nowhere in that model is

there a time to make any connection to anyone in the community. precinct commander or two or three community affairs doing that. now it's personnel intensive. same cops working in the same sectors with 30% of their time off the radio to go out and make connections. it's about police work. it's definitely a crime fighting model. we give our cops the opportunity and training to make that connection. >> one of the arguments for stop and frisk is if you get rid of it, crime rate will go up. listening to your statistics this morning, murders have gone down. >> we're on pace 2014 was our best year in a while. we're on pace where we're six or seven above that. in '92 there were 2,200 homicide. last year 350. this year looks to be under that. stop and question is a constitutional tested tool that we still use. not to levels thit was used in

2011 and 2012. crime rate keeps going down. >> thank you for what you do and nypd does every day but especially around these holidays and the thanksgiving day parade. great to have you here. >> i have the best job in the world working with the best people. >> thank you so much. still ahead, general david petraeus indicates he's ready to serve if called upon. we'll get congressman peter king's take on who should be inside donald trump's national security inner circle. we're back in a moment. people would ask me in different countries that we traveled, what is your nationality and i would always answer hispanic.

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♪ >> that's deejay rick perry as in governor rick perry of the great state of texas doing something with vanilla ice on "dancing with the stars" last night. >> i didn't know it.

he's still up for something. that was his closing argument. >> great political holiday traditions. thanksgiving tomorrow. want to get everybody in the spirit. "dateline" in alaska 2008. a couple weeks after the presidential election in which barack obama defeated john mccain. john mccain's running mate, sarah palin. >> i was happy to get to be invited to participate in this. and, you know, for one, you need levity in this job especially with so much that's gone on in the last couple months that's been so political that it's nice to get out and promote a local business and to just participate in something that isn't so heavy handed politics that invites critici criticism. we'll invite criticism for doing this but it was fun. >> how is that for political

stage craft. impromptu news conference and jamming the turkey down. >> using the word levity as fowl murder happens behind her. >> that's how turkey is made folks. hate to break it to you. >> we're back in a moment with congressman peter king of new york. happy thanksgiving, everybody. they are the natural borns enemy of the way things are.

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>> the mid evil times. we studied mid evil times. i would bring backwaterboa wateg and a hell of a lot worse. >> it appears he may be ready to appoint someone that would advise him against waterboarding. joining us now from the subcommittee on counterterrorism, peter king and former executive director of the wmd commission, dr. evelyn.

good morning. good to see you. chairman king, let me start with you. what do you make of general mattis at defense? he was in a room with donald trump and talked him down and talked him off torture by saying it doesn't work. i can give guys a pack of cigarettes and a couple beers and i can get him to give me information that torture would never get me. >> first of all, the united states never tortured. waterboarding was used three times. i don't consider that torture. that's in the past anyway. great regard for general mattis. again, if president obama had listened to him on the iran deal and other military operations we would be in a much better position today. general mattis is a soldier's soldier. a marine's marine. everyone i talked to who have been in the marines or armed forces have great regard for him. certainly whenever i heard him testify on the intelligence committee, he's coming before our committee and again it's just an outstanding leader. if he's in the defense department, if donald trump

picks him, first rate choice. >> you worked at quantico with him. >> he has a strategic mind. he is also a straight shooter. a straight talker. he can relate to the marine. >> so help us out. we obviously have had 16 years of sort of a bipolar presidency. eight years of george w. bush that was going to fight wars on all four corners of the globe to bring freedom and peace and sunshine and flowers to everyone and fight terrorism and then you had barack obama who has been in retreat. leading from behind. >> he's inciting terrorism in

all sort of places. >> he believes in leading from behind and has allowed genocide to occur in syria and done absolutely nothing about it. where does mattis fit on that extreme spectrum? >> i think he won't pick -- he'll go on a case by case basis. he'll examine the evidence and then decide. i don't see him as a guy that says this is my doctrine. he's practical but strategic. >> is he suspicious of war like most generals? >> i'm sure he is but not in a blanket unintellectual unexamined fashion. i think he understands that the use of force can help you and strengthen your diplomacy. something that i think you're alluding to with the syria comments that you made. he understands that use of force and threat that convincing real convincing threat of use of force can be useful to your foreign policy and in order to achieve your objectives. he's been involved in a lot of different operations, iraq,

afghanistan, and ones even before that. he understands the gamut from hardcore war fighting like the first gulf war and second gulf war, afghanistan was a hybrid and humanitarian operations he understands. >> peter king, how do we need the trump administration to split the difference between the extremes of the bush administration and extreme inaction in some places of the obama administration? >> i wouldn't accept your characterization of the bush administration. for purpose of the show, i think what general mattis -- >> for the purpose of the holiday season -- if george w. bush did too much and barack obama didn't do enough, how does general mattis and donald trump and foreign security team split that difference? >> we're getting along now. that's great. i think mattis will be solid. he's a soldier and a scholar. he does realize that there are

times where military force is absolutely necessary but if it's going to be used, you have to know how you're going to use it and what you have to do to win. he's not apologetic about it. on the other hand, he realizes you can't send troops in and hope for a quick victory. if you're going to do it, you have to do it. if you're not going to take tough action necessary, don't do it. also realizing that military action is only a -- after military victory you have to know what to do after that. you're going to withdraw and have same fighting all over again especially in that part of the world where they don't have institutions like you may have had in europe after world war ii. >> former cia director david petraeus said he would accept a post in the trump administration. in an interview released this morning by bbc general petraeus praised trump and quoted former national security adviser who said that people must "put aside any reservations based on campaign rhetoric and figure out what's best for the country." >> would you serve? >> i've been in a position before where a president has

turned to me in the oval office in a difficult moment and turned without any pleasantries and said, i'm asking you as your president and commander in chief to take command of the international security assistance force in afghanistan and the only response can be yes, mr. president. >> given the problem that general petraeus had mishandling classified information, would you have any problem with him being in a trump administration? >> absolutely not. he's an asset to this country. because of his personal issues, he's an unused asset. i think general petraeus did what he has had to do. this man is extraordinarily intelligent. he's bright. he knows what has to be done. he's the gamut of experience from iraq to the cia. a great military leader. i would say in iraq he was one of the first ones to get it. the surge that he led back in 2007 when everyone said the war in iraq was lost, he is the one

that put that together. he would be a phenomenal asset so any administration. >> evelyn, what do you think? general petraeus? >> i think he's clearly a solid candidate. the only problem is his sharing of >> he's a solid candidate. the he shared classified information and donald trump as a candidate was very vociferously railing against hillary clinton's sharing of classified information which paled in comparison to what he did. if he picks general petraeus it will bring to light that friction. >> because it's holiday season, and in the spirit of peter keane, i won't say it paled in comparison. that's your characterization. >> thank you. >> merry christmas. >> we're not quite there. >> i wonder, frank rooney, do you sideline one of the great

military leaders of the past two decades, general petraeus, because of the mistakes he made? >> i certainly don't think donald trump will feel bound by what he said as a candidate. the theme of the week is what donald trump said as a candidate is not necessarily going to bind what donald trump is going to do as a president. >> right. >> i think we've all actually taken a lot of encouragement from that. i don't think it's going to disqualify him. >> let me ask you, rick. i personally think it will be good to have him in service again. i mean, this is a guy that if you look at iraq in 2006, compare it to 2008, 2009, i remember once asking richard engel, you know, he's talked about how everybody hated, you know, americans over there, dayto da, da, da. who do you like? he said they put a statue of him

up. >> is he disqualified from public service for the rest of his life? >> no. it's in the political space like all of this is. >> right. >> he'll pay a political price for it. all of this is costing him political capital. by naming mitt romney, that costs him political capital with his base. and if he picks general petraeus and -- he'll have to argue it out. i think he'll win because i think general petraeus is a great asset. >> congressman king, let me ask you before we let you go. your name has been floated out to run homeland security. given the outspoken voice you've been over the years since 9/11 about homeland security and about terrorism, is that a position you'd accept? >> i haven't been asked anything, i haven't been offered anything. it's certainly arrogant to say i wouldn't accept anything. it's not anywhere in my horizon. if i could give one bit of advice to donald trump, i would say don't spend so much time hanging around with the "new york times." frank rooney. be out there with real americans, you know? be out there in the hartland.

forget "the times." >> news day. >> you came up the snake charmer. no offense. >> i don't know about snake charmer. he emerged relatively unscathed, let's say that. >> there's a really good "new york post" op ed on syria. it says here's the proposal for donald trump. it's not a safe no fly zone, it's a safe zone with the turks. thought you might be interested. >> we absolutely have to do something. suffering in that region is just unspeakable and it just keeps getting worse. >> we're just standing by. >> that's why al-jazeera report this weekend that's absolutely heartbreaking. children, little babies, i guess, because i just saw a picture of jack when he was in the nicu eight years ago. there's a picture of these little babies that are premature and the parents are fighting to keep them alive while assad just keeps bombing. and the mothers are trying desperately to keep these children alive.

it is unspeakable what is happening in syria and it is unspeakable how we have sat back and washed our hands over the last five years. it is hell on earth there right now. >> donald trump did mention this in the meeting with "the times." this did come up. he said much of what you did, this is an intolerable situation. what we're all waiting for, what is the plan? he said his heart isn't about doing something. we're waiting for details. >> that's what people have been saying for a very long time. henry kissinger had a quote, your choices are always between a bad choice and a worse choice. there never is when you're president of the united states. they don't come to you and go, hey, this is going to turn out quickly. no, it's always the difference between a bad choice and a worse choice. barack obama has avoided the bad choice and the worst choice. the united states congress has avoided it. americans have avoided it. the west have avoided it for such a long time. i think at one point the french

weren't even willing to strike and actually hit assad's fighters on the ground and we pushed them away. i don't know. >> dr. evelyn farming cass, thank you very much. congressman peter king, thank you for your holiday cheer. >> thank you, peter. what a grinch. >> thank you, joe. >> i've got my shoes on. new information on the trump transition including his new pick to represent the u.s. at the united nations. plus, new numbers on what the americans think about the transition so far. one of the key words is optimistic at this point. "morning joe" back in a moment. the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me.

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wednesday, november 23rd. we're almost there. thanksgiving. that was president obama giving out the medals of freedom at the white house yesterday. with us on set, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner, rick tyler and on capitol hill "new york times" reporter jeremy peters. so the medal of freedom ceremony, we have a lot of news to get to but that was fun. >> what a collection. michael jordan, kareem abdul-jabbar, bill and linda gates, ellen degeneres, loren michaels. all walks of life, all walks of celebrity and history. pretty remarkable day. diana ross with a great look on her face. yesterday was particularly remarkable. when ellen was receiving her honor she weld up with tears. it was a really nice moment. >> some 30 years ago i was there when my dad got the medal of

freedom. it was a long time ago. he's going to be on the show today. we look forward to that. >> yes. >> a lot to get to because there are some new names to be announced this morning in the transition and some names that won't go away either. "the wall street journal" reports that mitt romney is now the leading contender for secretary of state, but the paper describes an ongoing tug of war between those backing romney and others urging the selection of former new york mayor rudy giuliani. so that would be rudy urging. a third group is pushing for more candidates, which would make sense. a trump spokesman said absolutely no decision has been made. now giuliani is speaking about whether or not he wants the job. let's take a listen. >> i am not going to discuss what i'm interested in nor what the president-elect is thinking and mulling over. that's not fair. that's not the right way to do it and this all has to be done very privately.

i don't mean just with regard to me, i mean with regard to everyone else. >> [ inaudible ]. >> that i'll answer for the president-elect. >> doesn't speak for the president-elect. not fair. not going to do it that way. not going to do it like this. actually, look. >> there's a big merger announced that may go through at&t/time warner, you could be attorney general, it could come up on your ledger in the antitrust department. something like -- are these big mergers going to be opposed by the trump administration? >> well, first of all, i won't be attorney general. >> you won't be attorney general? >> so, good, i won't have to decide that one. thank god. >> you made that clear. >> i can escape that one. >> i should ask jeff sessions that question. >> wouldn't be a bad idea but i don't know who's going to be attorney general. >> "the wall street journal" reported that the choice for secretary of state in a trump administration is down to rudolph giuliani and john bolton. we don't have john bolton tonight so i'm going to ask you

some questions about -- >> john would be a very good choice. >> is there anybody better? >> maybe me. i don't know. >> so he atctually announced sessions before the president-elect could and then started to pitch himself for secretary of state. and actually had to be told that you don't do it that way. >> somebody clearly got to him in between the second clip we showed and the first one. >> i'm just -- you know. >> the whole thing, any other administration with any normal president, with any normal transition, a, you wouldn't say it and, b, he wouldn't be getting anything, he'd be gone. >> jeremy peters, what does the process look like inside trump towers. we've only been talking about a couple of names, mitt romney now, wall street journal reports is a leading contender but we've heard about a lot of leading contenders and rudy giuliani primarily from rudy giuliani. are they considering other names? are we down to these two?

>> reporter: these are pretty much the final two, willie. i think there was general john kelly whose name was floated earlier in the week. he may be under consideration for other national security, diplomatic or defense posts. what the trump -- incoming trump administration is really trying to do here is broaden the number of people in these senior posts who have military combat experience because it's their thinking that if you have people who fought in wars making decisions about whether or not to commit the united states to more wars, that that's a better thing. now that makes people on the civilian side of the military very nervous because there is this long tradition of having civilian control of the military in our country. going back to the secretary of state issue, you know, rudy, you can tell from that sound bite, he's still in it. he wants to make sure that he does everything he can to persuade donald trump to pick him. that's why he was on his best

behavior yesterday when he came out of those golden elevators in the lobby of trump tower and didn't step in it again so he's being very cautious. >> yeah. i know. it's something -- it will be very interesting if that's the choice and the president-elect is choosing someone who's kind of -- he's going to freelance for himself around the world. he did it literally during one of the most i think delicate times which is a presidential transition and when people are being talked to and vetted and those conversations are supposed to be highly, highly, highly confidential and he spills not only about himself but about another person getting a top position in this white house. that -- these picks are define to go your presidency and that would be defining in a very bad way. it's just not necessarily a productive person to put in that position unless you want that person to do very well for himself because that will happen. "the wall street journal" reports that retired marine

general james mattis is likely to be named for defense secretary. i'm not saying anything that hasn't been laid out before our viewers. yesterday donald trump praised mattis saying, quote, i met with a number of other generals. they say he's the finest there is. he's being seriously, seriously considered for secretary of defense which is, i think, it's maybe time for maybe a general. quote, look at what's going on. we can't beat anybody. we don't win anymore at anything. we don't win on the border. we don't win with the trade. we certainly don't win with the military. general mattis is a strong, highly decorated man. the law says he has to be out of the military for seven years and it has been 3 1/2 since mattis retired. congress could pass a law to ease his appointment. >> if you want to know the level of respect donald trump has for general mattis, where donald trump said he flipped on torture

in the space of one line from general mattis who told general, torture doesn't work, give me a pack of cigarettes and a beer, you know what, that convinced me, there's no torture. >> mattis has had a big impact on donald trump. >> yeah. >> if you talk to him, certainly happy yesterday with the "new york times." also, i think you're seeing a better understanding of exactly what it takes to run an intel agency. all of these things, you can tell he's surrounding himself with general mattis and others, with good people that's actually impacting his other picks. >> right. well, the charleston post and courier reports that south carolina governor nikki haley has been selected to become president-elect trump's ambassador to the united nations. according to the report, her acceptance of the cabinet level post is expected to be announced today. currently in her second term she is the nation's first female

governor of indian descent and will be the first woman to accept a senior position. >> if you look at this, rick, this is donald trump saying -- yes, he's saying with mitt romney, i don't care what you said about me in the past. you know, i care about governing this country effectively in the future. we're going to show some poll numbers that show americans seem to be picking up on this from donald trump but anythinikki has very critical of donald trump from the beginning. pretty tough on him, in fact, and now -- >> not by the news standard. >> not by the news standard. by donald trump standard or your and my standard, she was not on his side. you know, team of rivals is used a little too much. >> she was a rubio supporter. she was very tepid even when he became the nominee. now he's on board. >> now she's getting to work. >> juxtapose that against mitt romney who was extraordinarily tough. >> yeah. >> and, look, i think what donald trump is doing is he has a lot -- i think he does have a lot of political capital with

his base and the people that supported him and he's exchanging that capital a little bit, like currency for currency. hopefully it seems that maybe -- just by talking about rudy giuliani he's earning a little street credit with the establishment. i like his -- >> rudy giuliani? >> mitt romney, i'm sorry. >> mitt romney. >> mitt romney. newt gingrich has been promoting rudy giuliani saying we need someone very tough to negotiate, and that may be true, but on the one side you have -- >> no. i mean, we've got -- >> we're good. >> -- we've got donald trump to negotiate. you don't need fire and more kerosene on top of the fire. >> i tend to agree with you. if you look at the military picks in mattis, it seems to me that mattis has -- he doesn't want to use the military, but if you do have to use it, use it in full force. >> have you seen some of his quotes, willie? have you seen some of mattis's quotes? >> oh, yeah. >> we can't say all of them over the air. >> i've got a few. >> what you want is a diplomat

who keeps you out of war. war is the failure of diplomacy. i think romney would be a great counter balance. >> no doubt. just like nikki haley, donald trump shows that he is bigger than everybody took him for being. he's actually interested in -- he said at "the times," i want to put together a successful administration. this nikki haley pick, again, is a great step that direction. >> you have to give trump credit for being willing to climb in off the limb he was out on with respect to these folks and putting folks like romney and nikki haley in. he was a little bit short of diversity. so adding nikki haley helps him there. look, i'm -- i think rudy giuliani would be one of the worst mistakes anyone can possibly make. mitt romney would bring some adult maturity, gravitas, serious guy. he doesn't know that much about foreign policy. he had one great comment on russia in the debate -- >> are you serious?

this guy has spent his life traveling around the world making deals for bain capital. do you think that you set up bain capital and go around the world and do what he does without -- that's -- that would be like -- if somebody said to me steve ratner doesn't know anything about the world, i'd say, are you kidding me? he, like mitt romney, is a businessman who is traveling all over the world. mitt romney hasn't been hanging out in -- >> what did hillary clinton have? >> hillary clinton was a senator for eight years and served on the armed services committee. >> and what did she do with that? >> i like mitt romney. bain capital did not operate all over the world consistently. it was mostly a domestic firm. i certainly am not qualified to be secretary of state. i've been to some of those places but i've never interacted with them on a diplomatic level. >> if you look at his work at bain capital and he did do a lot of international work, you look at the fact that he saved the

olympics when they were -- when they were mired in corruption. of course, he had to deal with people all over the world to deal with that, the utah olympics. then add on top of that, again, it's no small fete that he got a lot of things right that the president of the united states who had been getting top security briefings for four years got wrong. >> so rudy -- >> i was going to say he was famously right in the 2012 debate about russia. >> i said that. >> also, if you're worried about donald trump's temperament, he's a hothead, he's going to bomb the hell out of isis. mitt romney is the opposite of that. remember his critique of him, he was too even keeled, too much milk toast. he's a nice counter balance. >> i had two encounters with mitt romney. on health care and the other one was in 2010 or 11, he invited

people to come up and spend the day with him. the thing i learned is he's a terrific student. he thinks deeply about policy. he educates himself. he has a lot of substance knowledge. >> one of his faults was if he didn't know anything top to bottom he wouldn't comment. >> that's one of the things unlike rudy giuliani who comments too much. the other thing, jeremy peters, about mitt romney is that he is a company man. he does -- he does not go -- if donald trump selects him as secretary of state, he's working for the president of the united states and we as americans all know when he steps off that plane in beijing or in moscow, he's only going to say what the president of the united states wants him to say up like a lot of recent secretary of states that we've had. >> reporter: right. and i think that loyalty is part of the reason he's considering this job so carefully. you have a number of people in his orbit who are saying, yes, do this.

do this for the service of the country. you can help check donald trump, any impulses that he has that may be too much, you can rein those in. on the other side though, there are people in mitt romney's orbit who are saying, look, everything donald trump touches turns to chaos and disgrace eventually. do you really want yourself associated with that if things go south. so there is that internal dynamic going on. i think the big question is if romney becomes secretary of state, how carefully, how closely will donald trump listen to him? and that's just what we don't know. >> i can tell you, i've actually talked to mitt romney and a couple other people around him. there is -- there is no question that if asked he would serve the president of the united states and he would do what the president of the united states -- >> he's just not running around saying it. new national polls show americans are positive about donald trump's job so far. in a cnn/orc poll of adults, 53% say trump will be a fairly or

very good president. 66% say yes when asked if trump will be able to change the country. >> look at that number, that's a two to one on change which is amazing. i guess that's why he got elected, huh? >> a quinnipiac poll of registered voters says nearly 6 in 10 are optimistic about the next four years under donald trump. >> are you surprised by that? 60% optimistic after that ugly campaign? >> dow 19,000 yesterday was pretty optimistic. >> we'll get to that. >> you talked about what a difference a week or so zblaks 53% believe the trump administration will take the country in the right direction. 52% believe president-elect trump's policies will help the economy. and the cnn poll found that 73% believe he will likely be successful at repealing and replacing obamacare. 64% say he will succeed at renegotiating nafta. 60% are confident he will create

jobs in challenging areas. >> mika, those are extraordinarily positive numbers. any president would like those numbers coming in, especially coming out of an ugly election. i'm sure most presidents began with the wind at their back like this, but given how ugly this rasz was, given the fact that his approval ratings were in the 30s until last week, why do you think these numbers have reversed so quickly? >> because i think it's the same thing that a lot of people for some reason couldn't see in the leadout, that there's a large swath of this country that knows exactly who donald trump is and they attach his name with success, period. >> every one of those things that he got those big numbers on, obamacare wasn't in his agenda. building the wall wasn't in his agenda. >> they just think he can get things done. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump's transition from candidate to president-elect is leaving some conservatives miffed. we'll ask the ceo of heritage action for america if he's one

of them when he joins us in just a few minutes. >> dad. >> who's that? >> bill karins. >> seriously, that guy? >> when is spring coming. >> he's going to check on the forecast ahead for thanksgiving. bill? >> thankfully we're not dealing with horrible conditions. storm in the middle of the country, icy weather in minnesota, wisconsin. the tail end of this storm pretty good thunderstorms over the top of houston. no major airport delays. the storms will be overhead over the next half hour or so. let's talk about other airports. take a look at the highways. this is the possibility for delays. the red obviously being the worst. early snows. i think we're going to be fine this afternoon, minneapolis. detroit, rain showers for you a little later. o'hare, light rain, poor visibility early today. as we go through the afternoon we'll get improving conditions. look out in the pacific northwest. strong winds late today, overnight tonight and into tomorrow. that possibility of delays will last all the way into thanksgiving day. as far as the highways go, this

shows you where the radar is. memphis early today has some rain. interstate 65, 94 as we head up through areas of wisconsin and minnesota. as far as any trouble drive, i don't think anyone is going to have any blocked commutes. there's no heavy snow or anything like that. just the rain and wind in areas from chicago to nashville. i mentioned the concerns on i-5 especially late tonight into tomorrow as the storm system will come on through. as we go into thanksgiving day, the map a little quieter. rain in areas of the northeast that shouldn't be causing too many issues. pittsburgh a little bit of delays. seattle, i love all of the green on this map. if you chose to travel early thanksgiving morning, you're looking fine. we mentioned pittsburgh and seattle. the macy's thanksgiving day parade in new york city, we will be watching again, cloudy skies, temperatures in the 40s but it's really not all that bad. i think the balloons will fly, too, with the light wind. i mentioned the one spot. we have horrible weather in any location in the country,

houston, texas, you're fine right now. thunderstorms arriving in the next half hour. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. the pursuit of healthier.

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butterball turkey talk line. this is steve. how can i help you? >> oh, i hope you can. this is really a question about stuffing. >> okay. do you call it stuffing or dressing? >> i call it stuffing. >> okay. wrong answer. bye-bye. delta 359er, this is chicago o'hare tower. i need you to go to 2700 feet and level off on approach. please stay in the holding pattern. we will advise. >> hello? >> hello. >> it says sell by 11:28 after thanksgiving. >> after thanksgiving. does it say what year? >> 2016. >> just making sure. just making sure. >> yeah. >> so, yeah, you can definitely sell it. >> sell it? >> yeah, you can definitely sell it. it says you can sell by 11/28. you can legally sell it. >> they're lovely dogs.

i like my dogs. >> no -- >> hillary clinton voters was not the only one caught off guard by donald trump. >> at what point are there too many dogs. >> two rabbits and cats. >> three dogs? two cats? two rabbits? >> my rabbits are donald and melania. we don't know -- never mind. there's like a problem. >> trying to figure out what's what. which one's donald and which one is melania. >> i would say keep the dogs. >> all three? >> yeah, dogs are great. >> get rid of them, send them to a farm or something like that. >> i'll leave that to you. >> oh, wow. geez. >> the bunnies are so cute. >> donald trump shocked wall street -- shocked wall street, did the swan dive before rallying back to record highs. boy, they just keep going higher and higher. steve ratner has a new look at how the markets are gauging the economic trends. let's start with the rally after

donald trump's win. it's so funny, this is going to be brexit times five. well, a lot of people thought that the markets would collapse. >> so this is where the market, even experts were wrong. the experts predicted the markets would collapse. on election night if you were watching the dow went down 700 points. >> the futures. >> the futures. when it first looked like trump was going to win and turned around. you can see starting on november 8th what happened, which was that the market which had been going up a little bit just took off, it's up 3.1% since election day and not only is the s&p, which is what this is at a record, but so is the dow, so is the nasdaq and that's the first time that's actually happened since -- since 1999. and what really happened was the market woke up and realized they had elected an enormously pro business president, one that will cut taxes on business, ease regulation, one that will make it a lot easier for companies to

make profits. >> by the way really quickly, just it looks like nikki haley is, in fact, going to be a cabinet level u.n. ambassador. >> i think they're all cabinet level. >> it was -- >> just confirming. >> it's confirmed. >> okay. >> it doesn't have to be confirmed. >> let's confirm. can i have my last 90 seconds? >> let's go. >> we're going to talk about rabbits some more. >> rabbits. have you ever had any -- >> so why, why did the stock market go up? >> great question. >> tell us. >> if you look at some of the specific sectors, you can see how they relate to the kinds of things trump's talking about. infrastructure. steel is up 25%. he's talking about loosening regulations on drilling for oil and gas. oil services which is what that is is up 13%. talking about loosening regulations on banks. interest rates are going up.

we'll get to that because of trump. very good. talking about bringing back coal. coal is up. talking about spending more on defense. now at the bottom he's talking about spending -- giving the drug companies a bit of an easier hand. >> so can i ask you about hospitals? obviously there's going to be some sort of health care reform. why do you see pharma going up and hospitals? most health care people i talk to see this change as a positive. >> so for pharma, for biotech, for those like that it's good. the obamacare worries people about hospitals. you'll have fewer people ensured, fewer people going into hospitals with insurance and that ends up costing the hospitals money. the last thing that i just want to talk about is what happened to interest rates because just as the stock market took off, the bond market also said, hey, wait a minute, this is a big change in life for us because what trump's tax cuts mean almost certainly are much larger deficits and larger deficits

mean higher interest rates. so judging by the ten year treasury, interest rates went up half a percentage point almost immediately after trump's election. >> coming up on "morning joe," a moment from the 2016 election that made my dad, in his words, levitate. our interview with dr. brzezinski when "morning joe" continues. every day starts better with a healthy smile. start yours with philips sonicare, the no.1 choice of dentists. compared to oral-b 7000, philips sonicare flexcare platinum removes significantly more plaque. this is the sound of sonic technology cleaning deep between teeth. hear the difference? get healthier gums in just 2 weeks vs a manual toothbrush

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okay. >> i want to follow-up. this petraeus thing. general petraeus. we're talking about general petraeus. i'd love to pull in mike lupika here. general petraeus, they're talking about him being looked at for something in the administration. we don't know what. but there's a question, does this guy get penalized forever for a mistake you made when you have really one of the most qualified generals alive who actually turned iraq around. when everybody said it couldn't be turned around, he went in and turned it around.

>> we can't prosecute every past crime that a public figure committed. petraeus did a bad, dumb thing. >> we all have. >> but jeff sessions was once against the voting rights act. he's going to be the attorney general of the united states of america. >> you just don't find, willie, a guy more gifted than general petraeus. >> it's a question of are you willing to throw out all the experience and the good things he's done with this bath water? now if you believe that hillary clinton is setting up a private e-mail server is bad, presumably you also believe that handing classified material to a girlfriend while you're writing an autobiography is bad as well. >> the same people, i struggled with this, so i think it is a real question. it will be an interesting one. the same people who, you know, were so upset about trump and "access hollywood" were bill clinton voters. they were able to make that separation about him and access

to a young woman in the oval office. like if that's not the most -- you know, so i don't know. i guess everybody's got their own math they do in their minds. >> you're a conservative, right? i follow the show. like i try to stay up on it. >> thank you. thank you. >> appreciate it. >> the rules of engagement have changed. look at three of the most prominent republicans over the last several years. donald trump. >> right. >> now that he is a republican, newt gingrich, rudy giuliani. >> right. >> nine marriages among them. >> right. right. >> and on the other side of that, the clintons, one marriage. >> yes. god bless them. but what i'm saying -- >> just one marriage. >> but 20 years ago, 30 years ago those would have been disqualifiers. they're not disqualifiers. the rules of engagement have changed. >> and i think now americans want the most qualified people out there, i really do. i think when somebody is as gifted as david petraeus, you have a chance, i think we're a country of second and even third

chances. >> we shall see. as you can see, mike lupkin is here along with the ceo of heritage action for america, michael needham. good to have you. >> thanks for having me. >> michael, what do you make of everything? where is -- you know, are you concerned about some of the things you're hearing? donald trump's actually being nice to the "new york times" now. >> what? >> locusts descending from the heavens? >> nice to the "new york times" was probably a little bit of a bridge too far. >> over correction. over correction. >> people are allowed to make mistakes. this is a transition that's going really well. i'm sorry, jeff sessions is a great guy who's unpopular in washington, d.c., because he stood up for the rule of law. i think nikki haley will be phenomenal. >> here nikki haley gets somebody that was critical of him during the campaign that he's going right to. he's talking to mitt romney right now. big surprise. >> i think one of them -- donald trump was always gracious once he won towards the people that

he defeated throughout the primary. he's shown himself to be a gracious guy who's pretty much running a transition so far that's been pretty flawless. >> yeah, exactly. beats jeb bush and suddenly low energy jeb because mid level energy jeb. there's always sort of a transition. >> so david brooks writes in "the new york times", fellow trump critics maybe try a little listening. many of my fellow trump critics are expressing outrage, depression, bewilderment or disgust. it all seems so useless during this transition moment. it's all a series of narcissistic displays and discussions about our own emotional states. >> amen. >> wow. this is good. >> amen. >> it seems like the first thing to do is really learn what this election is teaching us. second, this seems like a moment for some low-passion wonkery. it's stupid to react to every trump tweet outrage with our own predictable howells. it's silly to treat politics and

governance like a high school popularity contest. we've arrived at the moment of actual governing, we've arrived at the moment when trump has to turn his vague notions into concrete proposals. it wouldn't kill us trump critics to take a break to engage in a liliesening. >> was that -- >> was that one sentence? >> it's really unbelievable because -- >> i appreciate it. >> it's what i have been saying this week. you keep calling this guy a nazi, you keep saying he's a proto fascist. you keep attacking him the way that these trump critics are attacking him. twitter, you can't go on twitter. >> but hold on though, let me finish. >> what are people saying? >> a lot. >> you continue to lower the bar so much and lower expectations so much that just like you underestimated him in the primary and you underestimated him in the general, now you under estimate him in the transition. you play right into his hands. >> mike and rick tyler and i were talking about this before we came out. if you are one of those people

who are going to, as david brooks said, prosecute every single tweet for four years, your head's going to explode. >> yeah. >> but if you're going to fight him at every turn, then how much are you better than all the people who eight years ago were saying that they were going to make barack obama a one-term president. we have to hope -- >> yeah. >> -- that he can figure out how to be president the way he figured out how to win this thing. >> right. and i think we can see there's a huge opportunity wherefore so long the conservative republican party had been able to get by by the party who rode on what ronald regan said 30 years ago. he touched it, got into economic insecurity people are feeling, a feeling that people in new york city look down their nose at the rest of the country, at fly over country. he gets that american greatness is something worth preserving, we're not just one country among many, we're not cosmopolitan citizens of the world, we're a glagts. this is important for

republicans to figure out how to tap into, connect to trump and connect it to timeless principle. >> mike and joe and mika, what do you -- >> what about willie? >> he's behind me. he's hovering. no, no touching. >> oh, one of those. okay. go ahead. you all don't hug in your house, do you? it's cold and remote and icy. >> come to my house for thanksgiving. >> yeah, because there will be a seat after your dad vacates it. >> yes. he's leaving. >> doesn't it all come down to -- isn't the timeless principle j-o-b-s. he has to deliver jobs to people across wisconsin, western pennsylvania who carried him across the finish line. >> jobs, he'll pull back regulations, repealing obamacare, getting a border fence fixed. there's a lot that can go on in the first six months. it will be exciting. >> what are your concerns?

>> really quickly. it's official nikki haley -- >> which we've announced 20 times today. now it's official, nikki haley, u.n. secretary. >> big deal for her. >> u.n. ambassador. >> that's a big platform for her. you said the transition has been flawless so far for donald trump. as a conservative what concerns do you have? i'm thinking about perhaps the infrastructure bill. just piling government money into a project like that. do you have any concerns about that? >> yeah. i mean, look, i flew into laguardia airport. i think the question is how do you do infrastructure? how do you do these different policies? really as an american there's an opportunity to de-escalate politics. you don't have all of these decisions made in washington, d.c. the infrastructure, you have it be done at the state level. there's a reason in ohio you can have a governor's race that plays out and people don't feel like the world is coming to an end that they lost because at the state level the stakes are

lower. if this presidency cannot just be about getting some big things done, which is important, but also about de-escalating politics, moving decisions from washington, d.c., to the states, moving decisions from the presidency to congress, then we can get to a point where we're actually having elections and the losing side doesn't feel like something catastrophic just happened. >> so, mika, tell me about donald trump really quickly. again, you've said this from the very beginning. before the primary and then in the general and now we're going to the transition. everybody's so shocked. what's donald trump about? what drives donald trump? why does he always confound his critics? >> well, he -- he always is being underestimated every single step of the way and he loves people. he loves talking to people all day. what's your point? >> no, no point. >> oh. >> just -- i mean, he just wins. >> he's always underestimated. >> how many people are, willie, in primetime for 14 years? it just doesn't happen. i mean, you know, he's in primetime 14 years. >> oh, tv.

>> he decides he's going to run for president and it's just -- it's just his obsession so why wouldn't he sort of make the move that you need to make to now be a successful president? >> he also believes he has a mandate because he proved everybody wrong. everyone who said he had no chance to win the primary, everybody who said he would never be president, he feels like he's won. >> and he doesn't want to look bad. >> thank you both. still ahead, donald trump clashed with the pope during the election but now he's getting the blessing of another holy world leader. we'll explain that when "morning joe" returns.

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small business saturday is our day to get out and shop small.

a day to support our community and show some love for the people we love. and the places we love. the stuff we can't get anywhere else and food that tastes like home. because the money we spend here can help keep our town growing. this saturday is small business saturday. let's shop small for our neighborhood, our town, our home. get up, (all) get together and shop small.

you know, willie -- >> wow. >> -- the dalai lama this morning. >> optimistic. >> yes. >> you know, this saturday is small business saturday. >> yes, it is. >> i look forward to it more than thanksgiving. >> we've seen the dow rise to record heights. what remains to be seen is how small businesses will fare under the trump administration. for more on this let's bring in msnbc's ali velshi. >> i don't know if this is a joke on me, this title, stimulating small business. this is where the rubber hits the road. we talk about small businesses and how they're going to fare.

small businesses have the potential to and typically do create more jobs than big businesses. what do small businesses need from this administration in order to succeed? they need demand. that is the bottom line. they need to stimulate consumer demand. now one way to do this, a lot of small businesses tend to be more fiscally conservative in their customers and workers. this discussion about the current federal minimum wage, $7.25. donald trump is talking about a $10 an hour minimum wage. many workers want a $15 minimum wage. here's the rub, higher minimum wage costs businesses more money. a lot of them don't want it. they say it will stop them from employing people. it could stimulate demand. people may have more money in their pocket. let's talk about what more they need. they need clarity on taxes. many run their business income through the personal taxes. they pay a tax rate up to 40%. the solution might be donald trump's proposal to drop corporate income taxes to 15% and let business owners actually pay that. a lot of them don't get to pay

the corporate income tax rate. that's another thing. let's take a look at the last thing they need, businesses are plagued by paperwork and forms. they need a stream lined system. a big company comes into america, we made it easy for them. they come in, they have to fill out 4,000 forms. can we streamline it? make it easier? get all levels of government to streamline it. if donald trump can do that, that's what creates jobs. >> all right. ali, thank you so much. that's incredibly important. >> thank you, ali. >> small businesses continue to drive this. up next, more from our conversation from dr. brzezin i brzezinski. how he predicted the rise of someone like donald trump five years ago. keep it right here on "morning joe." everywhere, every time. [ dinosaur growls ] and his dad earned 2% back at grocery stores and wholesale clubs. yeah! even before they earned 3% back on gas.

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i'm not sure what's going on here. >> joe, you've changed. >> joe, you're -- wow, you're -- you're -- you're looking different. >> not as good looking. >> not as good looking. >> oh, come on. >> you know who's on next? >> who? >> chief. let me show you graham clemly, football player, dickinson, about to be a junior. yesterday we spoke with dr. brzezinski -- >> let him win some of it. >> a new administration faces in putting together a national security team. we'll do that on the other end.

we began by asking about the potential threats and opportunities in donald trump's outreach to russia. graham, listen. >> threats are obvious. they could produce a great deal of misconceptions on both sides and then disappointment and resentment. someone has to be very deliberate and cautious, but generally speaking it's a desirable thing to do. i think russia is no longer a communist state, first of all. that's very important to realize. it hasn't yet defined itself, however, effectively as a democracy. it is still uncertain. it has resentment, including against us. so it's a country in transition, and i think if we're clever about it, perhaps we can help them transit effectively and become a conservative, significant member of the global community, one of the top three, the united states, china and russia. >> so the president-elect on the campaign trail has often talked about china and he's talked

about vladimir putin, often criticized for being a little too cozy with him for having some sort of bromance with him. what is your advice to the president-elect for having these relationships? >> pursue it, make every effort, but do so calmly and patiently and knowing what is at stake. i think our role in the world, even dominant in a simplistic fashion is preeminent. america is needed to pull together larger coalitions that can deal with global problems and that larger coalition, of course, america, china, and a changing russia could be imminent. >> so talk about what the president-elect is going through right now, the process of selecting leaders to head up cabinet agencies around him. you've obviously seen this up close and personal many times.

how important are his first appointments, his first three or four appointments to set the tone for the administration? >> well, i think you put your finger on it, setting the tone is very important. and without naming names, because i won't, there is some ambivalence about some choices, particularly in terms of their very recent international conduct which raises questions to the extent to which they're really familiar with the name of the game. but by and large everyone who would be president has to go through both a genuine investigation of possible candidates and a couple of de facto deceptive efforts to convey the impression that he's considering many other people even when he has no intention to consider them. but that's normal. that's part of the game. >> in setting up his -- his national security team, what would be your key bit of advice for the incoming president?

>> at some point he, in fact, has to give a very major speech on foreign affairs and on the historical era and the condition in which we find ourselves in it. i think this is something that american people have to come to realize, that our future is interwoven now increasingly with the rest of the world. >> what are some of the biggest concerns that you have for the next four years for the president-elect and his in box on the international scene? what would you put at the top of that list that he's going to need to be concerned about? >> i would be concerned about how america conducts itself. is the president experienced enough to set a steady tone, a tone which has an historic vision to it, a sense of commitment but also understanding how the world is dramatically changing right now? i think that is the kind of balance the president has to show and it's too early to tell if he can or he cannot.

i think the situation is still uncertain but one certainly hopes that he will do well and he seems rather imaginative and bright so i hope he will. >> i'm curious, dad, were you surprised by hillary clinton's loss? >> yes, of course i was. in fact, i was so surprised that i went to sleep thinking that she had won. i woke up at 7:00 a.m. in the morning, put on the television and literally levitated. my whole body just rose and jumped out of bed, all everything at once. i was stunned. >> stunned. so on this show you talked about one of the biggest problems that you foresaw coming in the next decade, and it was rising income inequality. >> when you have stagnation, when you have rather severe case of unemployment, the sense of social injustice can be terribly demoralizing and politically in

the long run very dangerous. >> could this be what you were talking about? >> this and brexit. this, brexit, wa people expect will be happening in italy, france, germany in the coming year. >> yes, in part so. i think we have a very big dilemma in our system responsive to public needs, to the public sense of dissatisfaction, the public feelings of being exploited. those are realities, but to that we have to add a new one, namely, the political system itself lacks firm structures, cohesion, unity. >> all right. >> dr. brzezinski, thanks, dad. i'll see you at thanksgiving. you're coming to me, right? >> i hope so. >> yes. >> for not too long. not too long. >> i will have dinner for you. >> it was great talking to you, dr. brzezinski. >> not going to stay very long. >> always an honor. >> my gosh, my dad does not want to stay long for thanksgiving.

his granddaughter would like to see him. what do you want to say to chief? >> see you tomorrow, chief. >> yeah, we'll see you tomorrow. boyfriend is here, graham, jason. stop, joe. we have to go. happy thanksgiving. >> alabama. >> michigan/ohio state? >> michigan. >> we'll be back monday morning. >> ohio state? >> we hope everybody has a great holiday. go ahead -- >> what about sterling? >> all right. then i'm going to take it from there. good morning, i'm stephanie ruhle. we've got breaking news today. halley is in. nikki halley named donald trump's ambassador to the united nations while mitt romney is topping the list of secretary of state and ben carson offered a role which he hasn't accepted, not yet. this as donald trump tells "the new york times" he can't have a conflict of interest. why? he's the president. shocking details into that tragic, tragic school bus